There’s also something about the way we tolerate and even expect raunchy behavior or explicit sexuality from Black women, but it has more shock value / draws more ire when white women do it. That contrast for me drives home how much cultural value is still being put on purity, and how deeply white supremacy is intertwined with our culture’s views on female sexuality
A little off topic, but I just want to get this off my chest in case anyone feels the same.
Some folks are just tired of swimming in sexualization. It's hard to date or be around men who consume endless amounts of inappropriate material or raise sons in a world of excess that has never been available before. Women are also taught its taboo to be confident so in a bid to regain their power end up exploiting themselves. The documentary "Raised on Porn" should be enough to make us realize the direction we're heading is dangerous when protecting children is becoming impossible. That has nothing to do with religion or prudishness, but we're in uncharted territory even though these topics have always been around. It's not Sabrina's fault, but the same organizations and money behind her are the same ones pushing the loss of innocence on children at younger and younger ages. While I respect the opinions of others here, this is also just not something I want to support.
This whole debate has been so bizarre. We’ve seen more flagrant sex acts described in the 14th century Decameron, in pre-code Hollywood movies, definitely during the 70s glam rock era, just literally throughout history. I don’t get it.
Fully agree. I'm really trying to figure out what it is exactly about HER that's making people flip their shit this way. Haven't put my finger on it quite yet but it's very bizarre to watch.
I think you’re right— i just think the issue is how she is being marketed. She, like olivia rodrigo, get marketed to teens and tweens, and i do believe that puts them in a bubble and makes their behavior seem more radical. That could be because they are linked with Disney like you mentioned. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with how she performs or what she sings about, but i do think it is not a show for young girls and that should be explicitly stated. Because I also think that lots of people going to shows probably loved a few of her viral songs, like her style, and then went to the show and were taken by surprise. I think that’s fair, thats why i think it’s not her its how she is marketed.
yeah absolutely. I don’t feel qualified to speak on that as someone who’s not short nor small, so I didn’t include much there - esp bc there is a lot of nuance to be had there that I just couldn’t get into - but that definitely factors into it
That Substack essay that made the rounds last year lives rent free in my mind... the one about how Carpenter is selling a pedophilic fantasy because she’s being sexual... while short?
This is so tied to the whole Gen Z “sex scenes shouldn’t be in movies” thing that I find so bizarre. On one hand I think it’s good for us to have a conversation about sex in cinema, and I think intimacy coordinators are definitely a good thing, but to say sex should never be depicted in film is simply censorship, plain and simple.
However, I will say that I know a good number of Gen Z people - not younger Gen z though, the ones who are already adults - and I don’t know any who share these views or attitudes. I think they’re less widespread than we think, but are disproportionately amplified by social media. I definitely hope that’s true.
I wanted to explore why women who feel confident in their sex appeal is so taboo, and why it's not only held as 'disturbingly provocative' but also as a direct reflection of their intelligence.
Thank you for reading + for sharing this! I loved your piece - especially this: "An interesting point to consider as well is that when men feel comfortable in their sexuality and bodies, they tend to become more ‘feminine’. Think: Harry Styles, Elvis… perhaps, there is power in that? Female sexiness was born out of repression, following centuries of being told to hide ourselves." I don't think we talk enough about how when these norms are defied by men, they're almost always leaning into the feminine and not the other way around. There is SO much power in female sexuality.
I'm really sorry, but your analysis is so shallow. Every time a woman playing with her sexuality gets the spotlight, it's the same critique and the same defense. "Oh my god, she's gonna corrupt our children!" vs "Why are you so angry with a young and healthy woman enjoying her sexuality?" You really have to go a little beyond that, as much as in your analysis of the prudish trend as in what you think this sexual performance means and represents. You can't exclude the economics of it all. And saying that a woman who displays her sexuality is outside of the male gaze is just wrong. Were you around in the 2000s? Have you never read any analysis about pornography culture? I'm sorry, but you're missing the point.
i cannot believe that tweet in question is from gabby from survivor 37. it's wild out here, but this piece is so on point and gorgeously written, as always
i am ace, which lends itself to my mild prudeishness, but i don't think that someone else's sexuality should have such a profound effect on my own experience (or lack thereof) (except sex scenes in movies make me quite uncomfortable regardless of who it is, but that might just be me). i think that our culture is overcorrecting from the large pro free sexuality revolution of a couple of years ago. there are other factors to why people are so shocked with sabrina's display of sexuality--as Hayley in another comment mentioned, her whiteness is inextricably tied to this puritanical notion (and subsequent outrage at her behaviour). I also don't agree with all sabrina's ways of displaying her sexuality; she has mentioned several times how she 'looks like a niña' and alludes to her looking like a child/girl. this is an unhealthy connection to make--she's essentially allowing people to fetishise minors.
i should've included what she said after 'niña'--there's nothing wrong with looking young or any of that, but after that she said 'come put something big in my casita'. i read a really great essay detailing this sort of behaviour here, i suggest you give it a read https://jadehurley.substack.com/p/your-fave-is-selling-a-pedophilic
it is a harmful accusation, but i think it's important to be aware of this kind of talk at least and critically observe those we are fans of (still adore sabrina's music etc but i just don't support those kinds of comments)
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Remember former Disney star Miley Cyrus getting smeared for sticking out her tongue and twerking on the MTV Awards? Once again, parental pearl clutching over a full grown woman putting on a show. Nothing that a dozen backup dancers hadn’t done on stage the entire night. Solo women are just easy targets, going back to Janis Joplin — whose clothing was fairly tame though flamboyant and her looks considered quite plain. But her voice and dance moves were sensual and influenced by black performers, so she was written off as a provocative hussy.
I found myself shaming female entertainers back in the day. Fortunately , a stranger called me out on it and changed my mind and behavior. This person railed me for it, and I deserved it. Now, I believe that as women, it’s our moral imperative to call other women and men out on this shit. No more double standards.
YES! Love this! I've seen so much discourse around Sabrina Carpenter criticising whatever she's doing, and to me it all just seems wildly naive about the way sex (and often kink) is expressed and functions healthily between individuals, and that's coming from an ace person 😂
Thank you for reading!! The sheer amount of discourse is exhausting. People just cannot FATHOM someone having a healthy relationship with their own sexuality!! What a crazy concept!!!
Thanks for writing this, great read. A perfect antidote to the bizarre Sabrina Carpenter thinkpieces/takes out there! When I watched the video of her Juno cowgirl moment after reading this, I was still surprised at how tame it was! Hopefully the people being judgementally prudish will grow out of it. I remember being 17 and uncomfortable with a lot of female sexuality, and that was because I was a closeted bisexual who was raised in a very conservative, unhealthily sex-negative household. Once I left the closet and the family home, it wasn't too long before that discomfort went away too; I'm guessing at least some of Sabrina's detractors have similar baggage informing their views. Good luck to them and godspeed to Sabrina, I hope she keeps expressing herself however she wants and I'm so fucking happy to see people unapologetically embrace their sexuality, especially young women in the public eye given the deeply misogynist history of stardom etc.
It's crazy HOW tame she manages to be while expressing her sexuality — when I first started seeing criticism about it I was immediately like...THAT'S the stuff you're mad about? It's wild. But you're right — I'm sure most people who have these criticisms of her are pushing back on some internal work they need to do before they can grow out of it. Thank you for sharing all this with me and thank you for reading!
I remember when Madonna was threatened with arrest if she pantomimed masturbation during a concert in Toronto. She did it anyway, and the cops showed up but didn’t arrest her in the end. Whenever women display their own sexuality on their own terms, it makes people uncomfortable. Possibly because they realize that a woman’s pleasure isn’t theirs to control? Or because seeing someone that comfortable with their sexuality causes them to double down on their insecurity?
The shock value has gotten old and now is just seen for what it is: juvenile and trashy. After WAP this can’t credibly claim to be brave or transgressive anymore so what’s left? It’s like having a friend in high school that thinks poop jokes are still funny or something, you’re just embarrassed for him
I agree that Sabrina can choose to do what she wants, but her music and her performances are in the public arena and so there will always be some people who criticize any part of her work. And those people are free to do so as well.
There’s also something about the way we tolerate and even expect raunchy behavior or explicit sexuality from Black women, but it has more shock value / draws more ire when white women do it. That contrast for me drives home how much cultural value is still being put on purity, and how deeply white supremacy is intertwined with our culture’s views on female sexuality
1000%
A little off topic, but I just want to get this off my chest in case anyone feels the same.
Some folks are just tired of swimming in sexualization. It's hard to date or be around men who consume endless amounts of inappropriate material or raise sons in a world of excess that has never been available before. Women are also taught its taboo to be confident so in a bid to regain their power end up exploiting themselves. The documentary "Raised on Porn" should be enough to make us realize the direction we're heading is dangerous when protecting children is becoming impossible. That has nothing to do with religion or prudishness, but we're in uncharted territory even though these topics have always been around. It's not Sabrina's fault, but the same organizations and money behind her are the same ones pushing the loss of innocence on children at younger and younger ages. While I respect the opinions of others here, this is also just not something I want to support.
The facts of protecting children from porn that is accessible easier than ever remain.
Same points from Fight the New Drug and Enough is Enough. The point remains valid.
This whole debate has been so bizarre. We’ve seen more flagrant sex acts described in the 14th century Decameron, in pre-code Hollywood movies, definitely during the 70s glam rock era, just literally throughout history. I don’t get it.
Fully agree. I'm really trying to figure out what it is exactly about HER that's making people flip their shit this way. Haven't put my finger on it quite yet but it's very bizarre to watch.
I think you’re right— i just think the issue is how she is being marketed. She, like olivia rodrigo, get marketed to teens and tweens, and i do believe that puts them in a bubble and makes their behavior seem more radical. That could be because they are linked with Disney like you mentioned. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with how she performs or what she sings about, but i do think it is not a show for young girls and that should be explicitly stated. Because I also think that lots of people going to shows probably loved a few of her viral songs, like her style, and then went to the show and were taken by surprise. I think that’s fair, thats why i think it’s not her its how she is marketed.
YES this piece sums up my thinking on the “issue”. She’s literally an adult. Musicians have been singing about sex for DECADES let’s be so real rn.
That's what it literally all boils down to: SHE IS AN ADULT!!! Who cares!!!
It also might have to do with the fact that she is physically short and small
yeah absolutely. I don’t feel qualified to speak on that as someone who’s not short nor small, so I didn’t include much there - esp bc there is a lot of nuance to be had there that I just couldn’t get into - but that definitely factors into it
That Substack essay that made the rounds last year lives rent free in my mind... the one about how Carpenter is selling a pedophilic fantasy because she’s being sexual... while short?
Dude yes
This is so tied to the whole Gen Z “sex scenes shouldn’t be in movies” thing that I find so bizarre. On one hand I think it’s good for us to have a conversation about sex in cinema, and I think intimacy coordinators are definitely a good thing, but to say sex should never be depicted in film is simply censorship, plain and simple.
However, I will say that I know a good number of Gen Z people - not younger Gen z though, the ones who are already adults - and I don’t know any who share these views or attitudes. I think they’re less widespread than we think, but are disproportionately amplified by social media. I definitely hope that’s true.
Great article! I wrote about this, to a certain extent, in June: https://femmefactale.substack.com/p/do-you-feel-sexy
I wanted to explore why women who feel confident in their sex appeal is so taboo, and why it's not only held as 'disturbingly provocative' but also as a direct reflection of their intelligence.
Thank you for reading + for sharing this! I loved your piece - especially this: "An interesting point to consider as well is that when men feel comfortable in their sexuality and bodies, they tend to become more ‘feminine’. Think: Harry Styles, Elvis… perhaps, there is power in that? Female sexiness was born out of repression, following centuries of being told to hide ourselves." I don't think we talk enough about how when these norms are defied by men, they're almost always leaning into the feminine and not the other way around. There is SO much power in female sexuality.
I'm really sorry, but your analysis is so shallow. Every time a woman playing with her sexuality gets the spotlight, it's the same critique and the same defense. "Oh my god, she's gonna corrupt our children!" vs "Why are you so angry with a young and healthy woman enjoying her sexuality?" You really have to go a little beyond that, as much as in your analysis of the prudish trend as in what you think this sexual performance means and represents. You can't exclude the economics of it all. And saying that a woman who displays her sexuality is outside of the male gaze is just wrong. Were you around in the 2000s? Have you never read any analysis about pornography culture? I'm sorry, but you're missing the point.
YES!!! Thank you!!! Was looking for more nuance in these comments
i cannot believe that tweet in question is from gabby from survivor 37. it's wild out here, but this piece is so on point and gorgeously written, as always
I HAD NO IDEA. that's insane!! also thank you so much
Lol
i am ace, which lends itself to my mild prudeishness, but i don't think that someone else's sexuality should have such a profound effect on my own experience (or lack thereof) (except sex scenes in movies make me quite uncomfortable regardless of who it is, but that might just be me). i think that our culture is overcorrecting from the large pro free sexuality revolution of a couple of years ago. there are other factors to why people are so shocked with sabrina's display of sexuality--as Hayley in another comment mentioned, her whiteness is inextricably tied to this puritanical notion (and subsequent outrage at her behaviour). I also don't agree with all sabrina's ways of displaying her sexuality; she has mentioned several times how she 'looks like a niña' and alludes to her looking like a child/girl. this is an unhealthy connection to make--she's essentially allowing people to fetishise minors.
i should've included what she said after 'niña'--there's nothing wrong with looking young or any of that, but after that she said 'come put something big in my casita'. i read a really great essay detailing this sort of behaviour here, i suggest you give it a read https://jadehurley.substack.com/p/your-fave-is-selling-a-pedophilic
it is a harmful accusation, but i think it's important to be aware of this kind of talk at least and critically observe those we are fans of (still adore sabrina's music etc but i just don't support those kinds of comments)
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Remember former Disney star Miley Cyrus getting smeared for sticking out her tongue and twerking on the MTV Awards? Once again, parental pearl clutching over a full grown woman putting on a show. Nothing that a dozen backup dancers hadn’t done on stage the entire night. Solo women are just easy targets, going back to Janis Joplin — whose clothing was fairly tame though flamboyant and her looks considered quite plain. But her voice and dance moves were sensual and influenced by black performers, so she was written off as a provocative hussy.
I found myself shaming female entertainers back in the day. Fortunately , a stranger called me out on it and changed my mind and behavior. This person railed me for it, and I deserved it. Now, I believe that as women, it’s our moral imperative to call other women and men out on this shit. No more double standards.
YES! Love this! I've seen so much discourse around Sabrina Carpenter criticising whatever she's doing, and to me it all just seems wildly naive about the way sex (and often kink) is expressed and functions healthily between individuals, and that's coming from an ace person 😂
Thank you for reading!! The sheer amount of discourse is exhausting. People just cannot FATHOM someone having a healthy relationship with their own sexuality!! What a crazy concept!!!
Thanks for writing this, great read. A perfect antidote to the bizarre Sabrina Carpenter thinkpieces/takes out there! When I watched the video of her Juno cowgirl moment after reading this, I was still surprised at how tame it was! Hopefully the people being judgementally prudish will grow out of it. I remember being 17 and uncomfortable with a lot of female sexuality, and that was because I was a closeted bisexual who was raised in a very conservative, unhealthily sex-negative household. Once I left the closet and the family home, it wasn't too long before that discomfort went away too; I'm guessing at least some of Sabrina's detractors have similar baggage informing their views. Good luck to them and godspeed to Sabrina, I hope she keeps expressing herself however she wants and I'm so fucking happy to see people unapologetically embrace their sexuality, especially young women in the public eye given the deeply misogynist history of stardom etc.
It's crazy HOW tame she manages to be while expressing her sexuality — when I first started seeing criticism about it I was immediately like...THAT'S the stuff you're mad about? It's wild. But you're right — I'm sure most people who have these criticisms of her are pushing back on some internal work they need to do before they can grow out of it. Thank you for sharing all this with me and thank you for reading!
I remember when Madonna was threatened with arrest if she pantomimed masturbation during a concert in Toronto. She did it anyway, and the cops showed up but didn’t arrest her in the end. Whenever women display their own sexuality on their own terms, it makes people uncomfortable. Possibly because they realize that a woman’s pleasure isn’t theirs to control? Or because seeing someone that comfortable with their sexuality causes them to double down on their insecurity?
Excellent article. Really great read :)
The shock value has gotten old and now is just seen for what it is: juvenile and trashy. After WAP this can’t credibly claim to be brave or transgressive anymore so what’s left? It’s like having a friend in high school that thinks poop jokes are still funny or something, you’re just embarrassed for him
I agree that Sabrina can choose to do what she wants, but her music and her performances are in the public arena and so there will always be some people who criticize any part of her work. And those people are free to do so as well.
Of course, everyone can have their own opinion.